Grace Blogs

Please know I really dislike long blog posts. However, the nature of the question demands a long reply. If you have complaints please post those to Hugh’s blog on this same site since he would have something pithy to say in reply.

In our May GraceTalk session the following question was submitted:

Question

“Do you teach a pre-tribulation rapture view? Allot of the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine confuses me, because it doesn’t Jesus teach the disciples in Matthew 24 to be not deceived and lets us know of the events leading up to his second coming. Also, Paul told us in 2 Corinthians 2:3 that that day (second coming) wouldn’t come until a falling away happened first and the son of perdition be revealed (tribulation?). Any help or guidance you could give me on this subject would be much appreciated. Thanks”

Warning: Before I post my reply, please know we hold this issue loosely. In other words, it is NOT a fundamental belief. We do hold firmly in the hope that Jesus will return. The timing for when this occurs is a secondary issue. We extend and receive grace and love as we seek to better understand secondary issues like these. With this being said, let’s get into it.

Q1:

“Do you teach a pre-tribulation rapture view?”

Answer:

No. We hold no formal position as a church other than the belief that Jesus is coming back and this return will be marked by being both visible and in bodily form. Teachers at GF are free to believe a variety of chronological scenarios as long as the central idea of Christ’s return in the form outlined above is not diminished.

Q2:

“Allot of the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine confuses me, because it doesn’t Jesus teach the disciples in Matthew 24 to be not deceived and lets us know of the events leading up to his second coming.”

Answer:

I agree. I believe if you cannot read the teachings of Christ in a normal, plain way and discover the seed concept of the pre-tribulation position then it warrants further scrutiny.

Q3

“Also, Paul told us in 2 Corinthians 2:3 that that day (second coming) wouldn’t come until a falling away happened first and the son of perdition be revealed (tribulation?). Any help or guidance you could give me on this subject would be much appreciated. Thanks”

Answer:

As a passing note, the reference cited is found in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 and not in 2 Corinthians 2:3. Now, to better help set the stage for offering “guidance,” I think it pivotal to consider the timing of Christ’s second coming teaching in light of a more foundational passage - 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:2. In this section of Scripture, Paul writes:

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words. 5:1 Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. 2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. (ESV, emphasis mine)

I believe there are some helpful observations that Paul makes that serve as guides as to what his understanding was in regard to Christ’s return.

1.

Paul is talking about Christ’s return in this letter to the Thessalonians. I do not think any thoughtful person would suggest otherwise.

2.

Notice Paul what I have highlighted regarding the origin of the information Paul was teaching in v.15. Paul’s understanding for the return of Christ comes from the teaching Christ gave. Where do we find this information? The only answer (other than a personal visitation to Paul that we have no record of) is Matthew, chapter 24-25. So, let’s turn our attention to what Christ taught regarding his return since Paul seems to base his entire outlook on this information.

3.

In Matthew 24:3, Jesus is answering two questions that the disciples have: “…when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?” So, you would expect that Christ would teach a pre-tribulation position within this teaching. However, we know of at least two reasons why this cannot be the case.

First, the entire teaching is positioned as if the disciples will be the ones observing and watching for certain signs. How could this be if they are in heaven having been raptured?

Second, the culminating sign of the end is found in Matthew 24:30-31:

30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (ESV)

The disciples are clearly being taught by Christ that they will see His return. This makes perfect sense in light of the original “when” and “what” question scenario. Also, please notice the position of the time when this culminating event occurs, the end of the tribulation. Everything after this involves being ready and the experience of judgment.

4.

Notice how the next highlighted section (v.16) fits perfectly in chronology of the teaching that Paul received from Jesus Christ recorded in Matthew 24:30-31.

30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (ESV)

Again, when does this activity take place? The end of the tribulation.

5.

Now read the next highlighted section in v.17.

The word used in the phrase “meet the Lord in the air” is used by Paul in times when he would visit a city and the people would come out to meet him and escort him back into the city. This concept fits exactly a end-of-tribulation position. Followers of Christ are raptured to meet the Lord upon His second coming and then escort him back to the earth to rule and reign with Him.

Think about this. If this is the core teaching Christ gave us on His return wouldn’t it be expected that he would be clear as to a simple “when” and “what” question? If you need to use another passage to understand what Christ is saying or apply some fancy mathematical equation involving the 70th week of Daniel; I would encourage you to consider why. Why not sit down tonight and just read through the passage and follow the normal, sequential unfolding of Christ’s teaching. I believe this would lead you to better understand an end-of- tribulation return of Christ.

If you are of the pre-tribulational mindset (as I was for some 12 years of my life and ministry) and reject everything I have communicated, I am not bummed in the slightest way. I would encourage you to follow Christ wherever you may be on this subject (pre, mid, partial, whatever…). All who have trusted in Christ as their Savior have the hope of Christ’s return and for that I am very grateful!

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8 Comments

1. Hugh Williams : May 16th, 2008 at 6:05 pm

   If you have complaints please post those to Hugh’s blog on this same site since he would have something pithy to say in reply.

   I think the sure sign of the end is a long blog post from Dan Miller.

   Kidding aside…

   Teachers at GF are free to believe a variety of chronological scenarios as long as the central idea of Christ’s return in the form outlined above is not diminished.

   Just to clarify the “form outlined above:” As a teacher, my understanding of our position is the visible and bodily return of Christ at a time not expected. This would rule out things like a “secret return of Christ” or a second coming that was metaphorical rather than real.

   It seems that this would also rule out any cause for confidence that we can discover the exact time of Christ’s return. For example, if a person said, “Jesus will return after lunch on Monday,” that person would be mistaken in thinking that he can count on the time between now and Monday’s lunch — nor should he do anything he would regret if Tuesday rolled around without the sound of celestial trumpets. Right?

2. Dan Miller : May 16th, 2008 at 10:59 pm

   Hugh, you are correct and oh’ so concise on all counts. As a matter of fact, one of the ways you can know a person is (at best) misled and (at worst) a false teacher is by how precise they are in regard to the second coming regardless of how “spiritual” they may seem. If a person pinpoints the exact time they are in violation of Christ’s teaching in Matthew 24:36-42:

   “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. 37 As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, 39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left. 42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

   Think about the level of arrogance a person must possess to think they know something that Jesus didn’t even know in His humanness! And, it would seem, that even a false teacher should be able to read the Bible and avoid being exposed by committing this gross error, but this is precisely why a teacher who acts like this is false - they can’t control their appetite for power/control or recognize their own spiritual bankruptcy.

3. Larry : May 17th, 2008 at 9:19 am

   Hi Dan,

   I agree with you in regard to Matthew 24 that “the entire teaching is positioned as if the disciples will be the ones observing and watching for certain signs…”. Wouldn’t that suggest though that the events being described by Christ would take place within their lifetime (or at least the lifetime of many who heard this teaching) and not hundreds, perhaps thousands, of years in the future?

4. Jason Parry : May 21st, 2008 at 10:26 am

   I would suggest that the phrase “these things” in the disciples’ question (Matt 24:3) refers back to the destruction of the Temple which Jesus describes in the previous verse. The disciples are asking 1) when the Temple will be destroyed, and 2) about the end of the age. In their thinking, these two events are interrelated. The Temple was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD, fulfilling Jesus’ prediction, but clearly Christ has not yet returned.

   The trick, then, is to sort out which parts of Jesus’ long answer (Matt 24:4ff) are a response to the first question and which parts are a response the second question. I believe that this can be done in such a way that it becomes clear why Jesus is speaking as if those who heard his speech were to see the events he is describing.

   However one sorts out Matthew 24 (and Mark 13), I agree with Dan that there is no hint of a pre-tribulation rapture here.

5. Dan Miller : May 22nd, 2008 at 10:38 am

   Ah’ Jason you stole my thunder! Larry, Jason rightly points out that the early church supposed that the end had come when the Temple was destroyed. The early church did exactly what Jesus told them to do when they saw the Temple being torn down - they ran to the mountains (see 24:4-20). So, in regard to this, there is no problem with the idea of the disciples (”you”) seeing these events happen and responding appropriately. The challenge comes with which parts of the “long answer” (as Jason put it), fit and where? Well, it is clear that large chunks of what Christ is teaching has not occured yet. For instance, in v. 21 Jesus says, “For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.” Or, how about v. 29? “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.” Or, how about v.30? “Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

   So, I would take the idea of “you” (referring to the disciples who were hearing Jesus give this teaching) refers to the disciples who were with Jesus and the disciples (us) who had yet be born. In this way, we now look back at the events that have occurred and we look forward for the other events to take place (potentially) in our lifetime.

   We have examples of prophecies in the Old Testament occurring in stages over time that involve the initial group and a subsequent group (compare Isa. 7:14 with Matthew 1:23).

   Regardless, the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture does not flow from this passage. In my opinion, the only end-time belief pattern contained in this teaching (regarding the tribulation) is a post-tribulation position.

6. Larry : May 22nd, 2008 at 12:48 pm

   I’m with you on the pre-trib rapture for sure. No matter how we define the tribulation, the Biblical position is that the return of Christ comes after it, it seems to me.

   What causes me to question if this discussion (Matthew 24) references the second coming at the end of time is Christ’s assertion that ALL these things, even the one’s you pointed out (stars falling, coming on the clouds, etc.) will take place before “this generation” passes away.

   To me this is complicated further by Christ’s assertion, just two chapters later in Matthew 26:64, that the Sanhedrin too will see the Son of Man “coming on the clouds of heaven.”

   There is a precedent in the Old Testament to talk about God’s judgment on a nation in these kinds of symbolic terms. For example Isaiah 13:9-10 prophesies the judgment coming on Babylon in similar terms to those Christ uses here. The same is true for Isaiah 19:1 which speaks of the Lord “riding on a swift cloud” in coming to judge Egypt.

   Like you, though, my position on “end times” has changed over the years so I can’t say with certainty that this is THE reading of this passage but I think it’s at least a possibility (as is your view) whereas the pre-tribulational understanding is really not possible given what the text says in my opinion.

7. Jason Parry : May 22nd, 2008 at 10:07 pm

   Dan - I apologize for stealing your thunder; I didn’t realize a storm was coming! I have been studying the book of Daniel recently, which Matthew 24 quotes, so this topic has been fresh on my mind.

   I think Larry rightly points out that Matthew 24:34 (”this generation will not pass away until all these things take place”) is key to determining which parts of the discourse answer which parts of the disciples’ two-part question. Matthew 24:34 would seem to eliminate the option of taking the “you” of 24:4-33 to refer simultaneously to the first generation of disciples and to the current generation of disciples, as is admittedly possible to do in other passages.

   I believe it is possible to understand all of 24:4-35 as instructions/encouragement with regard to the Jewish-Roman War and destruction of the Temple (70 AD), and all of 24:36-25:46 as instructions for awaiting the return of Christ.

   Matt 24:21 (an allusion to Daniel 12:1) is linked to 24:15-20 by the preposition “for,” so 24:21 provides the reason for the flight described in 24:15-20. The “great tribulation” of 24:21 would thus naturally refer to the atrocities associated with the Jewish-Roman War.

   Jesus’ statement that this “great tribulation” will be unique in history does not specify the sense in which that tribulation is unique, so there is no standard way to compare that tribulation to other historical events in order to determine whether or not the tribulation of 24:21 has occurred. We can only determine whether the “great tribulation” has occurred already based on the broader context of the verse.

   Matt 24:29, as Larry rightly points out, picks up the judgment language of Isaiah 13:10, probably to refer to God’s judgment on Rome after the Jewish-Roman War (the “tribulation”), just as Isaiah was referring to judgment on historical Babylon, which fell to the Medes and Persians (cf. Isa 13:17-19 to Dan 5:25-31). We would not claim that Isaiah 13:10 has not yet been fulfilled simply on the basis of the cosmological language, since we know that Babylon has indeed been judged. The same reasoning could apply to Matthew 24:29.

   Matthew 24:30 alludes to the segment of Daniel’s vision which describes the Ancient of Days passing judgment on the four beasts (representing the historical kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome), and then giving the kingdom instead to “one like a Son of Man” coming in the clouds (Dan 7:9-14). In other words, Daniel’s vision describes a change in kingship: Rome (the fourth beast) is dethroned (like Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece before it), and the Son of Man is enthroned in its place. This enthronement of the Son of Man as seen in Daniel’s vision occurred in history at the time of Christ’s exaltation to the right hand of the Father (Matt 28:18; Acts 1:9-11; 2:29-36; 7:55-56). Furthermore, the phrase “then all the tribes of the earth will mourn” in Matt 24:30 may allude to Zech 12:10-14, a passage which John 19:37 claims has already been fulfilled. Thus, even Matthew 24:30 could be understood as being fulfilled in the time of the first generation of disciples.

   At any rate, I am far less certain than Dan seems to be that “large chunks of what Christ is teaching has not occurred yet” with respect to Matthew 24:4-33.

8. Louise Norman : May 24th, 2008 at 2:40 pm

   If you don’t have a weak heart and if you have a handy supply of tranquilizers, feel free to Google “Pretrib Rapture Diehards” (note LaHaye’s hypocrisy under “1992″), “Pretrib Rapture Desperados” (this will blow you away), “Famous Rapture Watchers” (the only “rapture” view found in Christian Theology books before 1830), “The Rapture Index (Mad Theology)” (can tornadoes make Todd Strandberg more truthful?), and “Deceiving and Being Deceived” by MacPherson (who thoroughly debunks the conscience-searing claims for Pseudo-Ephraem and Morgan Edwards). MacPherson’s bestselling book THE RAPTURE PLOT (see Armageddon Books) has mountains of pretrib-destroying documentation that he found in libraries in Britain which was known in the 1800’s and then covered up for a century! Just don’t run out of tranquilizers, okay? Louise N.

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