I agree with everything you said. Especially the part about if the Gospel was really being proclaimed by this guy he would naturally not be doing what he is doing. I also liked that we are all “crooked sticks” and not just this guy. Though some seem more crooked than others, though sin is sin.

Thank God he sees us who have trusted Him as “perfectly strait” sticks through the blood of Jesus!

#1. I do think there are some who have come to Christ via the Holy Spirit using the Lakeland revival. I don’t believe it is because of Mr. Todd, but because even in missing or lopsided presentations God moves to call people to follow Him. It is amazing what God can do! BTW. If Mr. Todd were proclaiming the Gospel, I don’t think he would be doing some of this other stuff since He would be more attuned to the Bible (which in turn would correct his actions).

#2. The Gospel message stands on its own. What do I mean by that? The Gospel is a message that has certain truth-claims and these claims can be evaluated and responded to regardless of the messenger. Also, let’s remember we are all “crooked sticks” to some degree. The difference here is that Mr. Todd acts as if everything he is doing is directly from God’s lips to his ears. Also, we hear the content of his message and compare it to the Bible and it comes up wanting. This is not a personal thing.

Also, when I said previously, “If you can’t expose this for what it is then maybe it exposes you for what you are, deceived” I was not trying to be mean. I meant that if someone believed the experiences happening in Lakeland (that are contained in the clips) are really inspired and directed by the Holy Spirit then they are wrong. Why? Because it doesn’t compare with how the Spirit works in Scripture and this means they are attributing activities to the Holy Spirit with no basis other than the persuasive claims of Mr. Todd Bentley. In other words, they are being deceived. Again, truth must trump experience when they are in conflict.

FYI that your #3 above is the same as my original points 2 and 3 above and is really where the rubber meets the road IMO.

Here they are again in case nobody read them originally.

2> No proclamation of the gospel of Christ and people seem to have no concept of repentance or what Christ did on the cross.
3> No records of people coming to Christ from these healings or “added to the church” from these “miracles”.

Something to ponder…

Now what if Christ had been proclaimed clearly and many were professing faith in Christ? That would have been a tough pickle as there would seem to be God hitting strait with a very crooked stick? Or would you believe that these professions and proclamations were invalid because of the rest of this man’s actions being false teachings?

I think it is great when people come out of those bad situations with their faith and resolve being stronger than ever. However that is generally the people you hear and read about. The ones you see on TV as you said. The “inspirational minority” IMO. The ones featured on the 700 Club, and at public events/churches to motivate and encourage and even lead others to Christ. I thank God for those people, but I believe that the majority would be more on the down, hurt and dejected side.

For me this does not mean they are lost people since they do not respond with awe inspiring resolve and determination to help others in similar situations. I know you are not really saying that either.

I go back to my past comments about people professing Christ but not living up to the “measuring stick” that we set for them based on our own interpretation of scripture. I am still yet to know what that “really saved level” is.

Only God knows their state as a believer or not. All we can do it to love and encourage unconditionally, make sure they understand the clear simple gospel, the freedom and joy they can have in a genuine relationship with Christ based on truth, and not the lies of a man. It is only for God to know. If that means them coming to Christ great. If that means them getting right in their relationship with Christ great. I want to be there to catch them/be there if they fall out of that kind of mess and lift them up, love, and encourage them.

Same as you would for a friend or relative that is addicted to drugs or alchohol when they crash at the bottom. Just like my wife Mary did for her brother Mike in May. We have recently heard that he has come to know Christ through his alcohol rehab at the Potter’s house in Jefferson where is will be for a year. Amen for that and for my amazing wife being intentional in someone else’s life (both family members and others) and making a real difference for God’s kingdom and His glory.

There I go off topic again, but it is related to this topic. However…read the next post to Dan.

#1.

Why does Todd need an angel to communicate to him? Jesus said: “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.” John 16:12-13 I would contend that Mr. Bentley is either being deceived by a demonic force or lying.

Am I wrong?

#2.

The prediction (since it seemed to be that exactly) that Christ would return on June 8 is directly opposed to what Christ said would be the signs of His coming in Matthew 24. And, in particular, how could he allow a person to write him and relay a “prophecy” of Christ’s return when Jesus said only the Father knows when this will occur? “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.” Matthew 24:36 How can Mr. Bentley receive, read, and seemingly promote this type of message if he is under the control of the Holy Spirit in the middle of this revival meeting? At best he is horrifically immature or, at worst, doesn’t have the Holy Spirit to discern the difference.

Am I being too tough or narrow minded?

#3.

Where is the call to repentance of sin? I have not seen one clip in which a miracle is accompanied by a clear call to repent and trust in Christ for the forgiveness of their sins. See Acts 2-4 for three clear revolutions of a miracle that initiates a call for repentance that creates the environment to present the Gospel. In these video’s you see a bunch of experience, but at no time does Todd complete the cycle that was the bedrock of experience produced by the Holy Spirit in the Bible. Either the Holy Spirit has changed and we can no longer see patterns as useful in guiding us to live God-centered lives or Mr. Todd Bentley is not operating under the power of the Holy Spirit.

What am I missing?

Regardless of what is seemingly happening in these clips, there is no way to conclude it is completely flowing from the anointing of the Holy Spirit. It would seem that the people in Lakeland, Fl. are under a strong delusion. As far as Mr. Bentley, well, he is either too immature to recognize that he is being used by the Enemy or simply a false teacher enjoying the warm glow of the cameras and the loud applause of people. If it seems hard to make this type of conclusion based on what we have seen, then I would propose that you search the Scripture! To hold an experience over the expressed teaching and pattern of the Holy Spirit in the Bible is to invite folly on a massive level. We are not talking about little items that don’t really matter in the long run. We are talking about the lives and souls of people who think people like Mr. Todd Bentley is actually speaking for God. If you can’t expose this for what it is then maybe it exposes you for what you are, deceived.

The shock and reality that their spiritual house was built on sand can potentially discourage believers to trust any leader ever again once they come of a situation like that. Not talking about losing their faith in God, but in people or leadership in general.

This is where my comment about being there to for them when they come out of those bad situations with compassion instead of an “I tried to tell you the truth and you would not listen” attitude. If they are in Christ they will know that what you are telling them is truthful and sincere. If not immediately then eventually. God’s Word does not return void. Amen!

We must be transparent, genuine, and consistent with no angle other than truly caring for that person’s physical and spiritual well being.

No more “Christian Emril’s” spiritual gumbo cookbook videos please. Baam! Baam! I’m done!

The First thing I notice is when the bible is read, or scriptures sited, it is always verses by them selves often out of context. It is like they take the bible and use it as a magic book. Scriptures which may or may not be relevant are used like a charm to coerce God to action.

Second, since lots of these types of activities come from a similar background I wonder if they grow out of bad holy spirit doctrine. I know a lot of people in this camp don’t believe in the trinity and that the Holy Spirit is like a battery in a car. Just another thing to be used for the work of God, instead of being a person of God himself who is to be worshiped, praised, and feared for all things including the gifts he empowers in us.

I think the saddest part of this whole thing is that these people come to Todd seeking God and implicitly measure how much God loves them by the mountains and valleys they go through instead of the little hill out side Jerusalem. I hope the people who go to see him realize they are not just broken bodies in need of healing, but broken souls.

You always respond directly to things I have written here and you are always encouraging to me! Like yourself I am also not a “Major Bible Scholar” but not a caveman either (guiroo) ;). Your comments and insights are greatly appreciated.

I like your analogy of the golden calf. People want something to latch onto that seems physically tangible in the here and now.

But what does Jesus tell us in John 20:29 (NAS) about this?
(Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”)

We are greatly blessed indeed!!

I made the previous cult reference of people following someone blindly as it applies here, and this guy is the common foundation of people following a man and where cults begin. Remember Jim Jones started as a “normal” Baptist pastor.

This man is not only leading people astray, but is directly responsible to God for every one of them.

Thanks Again!!!

Don’t forget that great biblical scholar (C.A. Nix)